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frogfriend ([personal profile] frogfriend) wrote in [community profile] meme_of_bilitis2018-08-06 08:49 pm
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Re: wank containment area

(Anonymous) 2018-08-10 09:56 pm (UTC)(link)
NA

Yeah, that's how I saw it too--the blending and sharing mentally/emotionally is a huge part of the trope.

On the other hand, they're not the Borg. They can and do *at specific times* share some really intimate experiences with each other & from each other's point of view--languages, physical sensations including biochemical/psychosomatic ones like crying or horniness or PMS, learned skills like gun knowledge or chemistry or hacking, really personal memories. But they are all also individual consciousnesses, and I don't see any indication that they're going to end up losing themselves and becoming one big eight-bodied 32-limbed group mind.

So I think characters of different sexualities in the same cluster will have specific experiences of knowing what it feels like to have another sexuality, but that doesn't mean they're all going to end up pan all the time. (This is based on what I got from the show, not whatever word of god.) So the gay characters will get what it's like to be attracted to the opposite gender and the straight characters will get what it's like to be attracted to their own gender, and the bi/pan characters will have experiences where temporarily they feel not-attracted to one gender or another. I suppose if some of them were ace and some were not, those feelings would be shared as well. (If Riley spends a lot of time in the heads of her lesbian and straight male cluster-mates, does she feel less into men for a while? I wonder.) But at the end of the day they're still themselves. The same way Capheus can't invoke the spirit of Van Damme if Sun is busy doing something else--he's not suddenly a martial arts expert on his own. He just knows what it feels like.

But they're not the Sexuality Borg. The point of a functional cluster I think is to have all those other viewpoints and experiences *available* but not have them take you over like some kind of psychic virus. (Being able to tune into and out of that kind of connection so we don't all have to listen to Kala and Wolfgang banging all the time or whatever is also a trope in sci fi about telepathic connections, too.)

tl;dr Being in someone else's mind to the point where you grok what it's like to be them isn't the same thing as no longer being yourself, or it doesn't have to be. I think that tension is a huge part of the story (though in the two seasons + movie we got, there wasn't time to explore it all), but it's not at all a foregone conclusion that something an individual finds really central to their identity the way sexuality often is (esp for gay people who have had to defend it so strongly) will simply merge into the whole or be overwritten. I'm not even slightly convinced that it would.

(And the sexuality crossover that I noticed most was straight boy Will getting a boner over m/m and being flustered but kind of rolling with it. I actually don't remember any pressure (via the cluster, as opposed to homophobic society generally) on Nomi or Lito to be into het, much less constantly, but I could have missed stuff.)

Re: wank containment area

(Anonymous) 2018-08-11 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
By "pressure" I mostly just mean like them being present for sex involving someone of another gender/someone of another gender being present for their sex life (including, uh, in person?) and mixed gender kisses of characters in same-gender relationships in the orgy scenes. (Including one of a man sharing with Nomi while she kisses Amanita, which Amanita is bi, but surprise!sharing is still uncomfortable.) On its own--yeah, it's temporary, it's experimentation, it's empathy--I like everything you just said! But the "everyone in the cluster will end up pansexual" thing is word of god, and that makes it sort of uncomfortable? There's a couple of monologues about how Sex is Life, I think, and sex is portrayed extremely positively, which can be euphoric to watch, I admit! But then there's this fridge logic about how no one's really allowed to say no to it and when non-cluster partners are around it's voyeuristic. It works out fine because everyone's okay with it and loves it in the end, at least the stuff they know about!

I was pretty okay with Will's bicuriosity, especially since it's not uncommon for "straight" people to have never questioned their orientation, whereas gay people are pretty much guaranteed to have asked themselves, "could I be bi?" at some point.

But also, honestly, if you don't fuss too much about word of god comments and just take what's there on the screen, better and kinder interpretations are certainly possible.

Re: wank containment area

(Anonymous) 2018-08-11 01:19 am (UTC)(link)
AYRT

Yeah, I think I'm finding myself pretty thoroughly ignoring word of god on this issue because I do find a much more positive reading going by what's actually on screen. I can do "we all get to experience different aspects of humanity that we normally wouldn't," but "everyone becomes pansexual" seems both wrong as in "inaccurate re: what's shown on screen" and as in "no, what, that has homophobic implications."

Not that you're wrong about some scenes being uncomfortable--a lot of it is YMMV and can wander across the line of unfortunate implications depending on a number of factors. So would definitely not say that someone who's not comfortable with some scenes is wrong or hypersensitive to feel that way. Nor that the show is perfectly enlightened in all regards (I have complicated feelings about the Daniela situation, for example, which mostly boil down to loving her as a character and loving the platonic side of her relationship with Lito/Hernando, but feeling a bit squiffy about the sexual aspects, and I'll stop my slide into m/m discussion here).

With the orgy scenes I always feel like I'm playing catchup when people say who kissed who when, because it all seemed to go by really fast for me in the parts where they were all together or kissing people who weren't their usual partners. I'm like...I would need to rewind and watch that scene over to even notice who kissed Amanita or whatever! But that's probably a me thing. Maybe everyone else does rewatch the orgy scenes, or is better at spotting things that go by fast.

Agree re: bicuriosity, and tbh, if anyone's going to have the edges of their sexuality pushed a little bit I can't say I'm too bothered when it's the straight guy. :P

Anyway I guess I do tend to push back a bit on the "Sense8 makes its gay characters pan" thing because I don't actually think that's what's going on. Though if it were or if someone feels that it did, I'd totally get that being a dealbreaker.

Re: wank containment area

(Anonymous) 2018-08-11 03:23 am (UTC)(link)
ayrt

Agreed on Daniela, I really liked her a lot, even if there were some scenes I had very mixed feelings about! I've seen a lot of hate for her and I'm just like nope can't relate.

And agreed in general that what was on screen works better than trying to make it fit with the word of god stuff. To be honest I try to interpret it as generously as possible when I watch (because I want to have fun!) but then sometimes I see crit based on stuff like that and I'm like, "you know, I get that too, that's actually right"--but it doesn't make the generous interpretation less right either, Death of the Author and all. I'm not dealbroken with Sense8, I'm just stalled over the pace alternating between really slow slice of life stuff and involved plot that's hard to jump into after a long break. I enjoy it when I watch it, honestly I cried so hard over Riley's backstory in s1 (and I like to be made to cry! It isn't easy!) I just...haven't gotten around to the rest of it yet. But it wasn't over these quibbles, for me personally--though if it's a dealbreaker for someone else, it is what it is and I don't have a problem with it.

In general I like the Wachowskis' work, I loved the first Matrix movie to bits from when I saw it in theaters, wasn't as keen on the second two though I wanted to like them a lot, and loved Jupiter Ascending in spite of the haters. Bound has been on my to-watch list for ages, but I was too young for it to be on my radar when it came out and I just haven't gotten my hands on it and set aside the time. I will probably just skip Speed Racer.

I remember being sad Sense8 was canceled even though I was Part of the Problem in not having watched s2 yet.
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