meme_of_bilitis | I have doubts that [a femslash meme] would be very long-lived

I have doubts that [a femslash meme] would be very long-lived

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Tt's the "awesome ladeez" of f/f.

Honestly "awesome ladeez" has the same connotations as "vegetables" to me in that it seems to imply that if you like the thing (in this case, female character) it must be purely performative. At least, that is the way I've seen it used.

Everyone I know uses it earnestly, because they really do like female characters, are used to seeing them bashed or flattened out, and want to distance themselves from that attitude. I guess it can seem performative if you don't ever see the bashing, but seriously, a lot of corners of fandom are still really bad about women.

ayrt Sorry, I didn't explain myself adequately--what I meant was I have specifically seen "awesome ladeez" and "awesome lady fans" used to mock or deride fans who prefer to focus on female characters (as opposed to the obviously superior slash ships, is the implication--and sometimes to the extent of implying that the choice is slash vs. het and f/f doesn't exist). And I do come from fandoms that are still pretty bad about women at times, so that's frustrating. My experience may not be representative, but that's what the phrase brings to mind for me.

I've seen the flattening in the name of love, too, and
that's also frustrating but not to the same extent because often it's young writers and I can see they're making an effort out of genuine enthusiasm even if they haven't quite internalized that "badass" isn't a personality traits.

+1

Some parts of fandom definitely do flatten out female characters, but these days I'm much more likely to see "awesome ladies" being used to assume that anyone who likes female characters at all is flattening them. That liking female fighter characters is inherently suspicious.

ayrt

Ah, gotcha. I think I probably just misread you. It was past my bedtime, lol. And yeah, I agree, it is SO frustrating. Eventually someone in the convo will be like "Actually I LIKE female characters, but I want them to actually be interesting and have flaws," but by that point they have already burned way past the benefit of my doubt.

Nobody goes after people for liking male characters the wrong way! Why is it that people who like female characters have to show their receipts? >:(

“Nobody goes after people for liking male characters the wrong way”

Have you somehow not seen any trash male/villain/woobie/“apologism”/etc etc discourse? I’m so jealous.

Nobody questions whether they really really like those characters tho. Nobody holds up an imaginary yard stick to measure the degree or quality of their appreciation for Mr Dreamy McVillain.

If your yuletide prompt is 'I just want to read about Mr McVillain doing some cool shit and being a badass'. No one is rolling their eyes because UGH they just want ~~~bada$$ vi11yns~~~~ how trite I appreciate villains for WHO THEY ARE AS CHARACTERS smh.

DA Idk, do you not think "ugh, silly shallow fangirls only like [male villain] because he's hot" is a similar kind of thing? Not a hill I'm planning to die on here, but it does strike me as a fundamentally similar attitude of "other fans like characters for bad, shallow reasons, I like them for ~deep and meaningful~ reasons".

I think there's definitely a difference. People who dislike fans of Trash Villain don't accuse the fans of being smug and fake-morally superior, just as people who dislike female character fans don't accuse them of being empty-headed, silly and hormonal.

NA

In my experience, there is eyerolling about people appreciating male characters of color in the wrong way. "I just want Sam Wilson kicking ass and taking names" is the kind of sentiment that does receive accusations of insincerity. These characters usually aren't villains, but they definitely do attract "you're enjoying them wrongly" accusations of many different kinds.

Yeah, the distinction is subtle but it is there. In a broad sense, both criticisms are questioning the integrity of your appreciation for the character.

But when it comes to "silly shallow fangirls only like white male character because hotness," the implication is that the fans like the character for the wrong reasons (wherein, a "right reason" may or may not exist, depending on who you you ask--often, especially in the "Trash Villain" category, the implication is that they shouldn't like the character at all).

Whereas when it comes to "vegetables" and "Awesome Ladeez," the implication seems to be that the fans like f/f or Awesome Female Character insincerely, for purposes of Virtue and social justice capital. (And as another anon has pointed out, this also gets applied to fans of characters of color.)

And I'd go out on a limb and say that in a broad sense the latter is at least some degree of pushback against the former, in the sense of "No, it is you that is shallow."

TL;DR they're both accusations of shallow engagement but the devil is in the details.

na

This is true, and so unfair! I want to be accused of being empty-headed, silly and hormonal when I like hot chicks and don't have deep reasons why. It's true! I'm a shallow, shallow person who sometimes just likes female characters because they're hot! Why do the haters have to assume I'm some kind of sexless nun piously worshiping Our Holy Lady of Feminism?

In honor of that, what morally reprehensible villains do you just find hot? Callisto was such an early influence on me personally. Bellatrix Lestrange/Black is also A+ Dark Fuck Princess.

nayrt blackfire from teen titans was an early example of a despicable female character i had a crush on

there's also villanelle from killing eve who's a remorseless assassin that solves almost all her problems with murder

freddie from hannibal isn't really a villain and she's not really *that* bad but she's still a ruthless reporter who knows how to make her stories sting and i love her for it

Morally reprehensible villains is my main type tbh. Villanelle from Killing Eve, Bellatrix, Darla and Dark Willow from Buffy, Cersei from GOT, Charlize Theron in Snow White and the Huntsman. I could go on.

ayrt

So many of your faves are my faves! Though I leaned more towards Drucilla, vampire!Willow from the Wishverse, and Faith, who admittedly is more of an antihero but did enough villaining to surely make her a Problematique Dark Fuck Princess. Yes yes at Charlize Theron in SWatH.

I love Cersei, though I admit my main hormonal shallowness is directed at Sansa. But hey, do you know there's this cool thing called femslash where we can have them BOTH naked at once? It's wonderful! So many hot ways for that to be morally reprehensible, too! :D

Do you know who I found weirdly arousing as a teen? Grayza, from Farscape. She's a rapist who roofies people with the sweat from her cleavage. That was like. "I am learning so many new things about myself."

Also my favorite sympathetic sexy villain from a movie based on Marvel comics is early 2000s Mystique. Naked, bendy, and deadly!

I really need to watch Killing Eve, don't I.

yes you definitely need to watch killing eve just besides the fact it's incredibly engaging and even funny at times it's also got a deadly assassin who is said repeatedly to be a psychopath

villanelle as a character is both somehow campy evil and also terrifying and yet also kind of tragic in a "maybe she wouldn't have been a serial killer given she had a completely different life" way yet it's also clear she's not the way she is because of trauma or anything
she's just completely and utterly attractive for someone into villains

ayrt

I actually meant Vampire Willow, not Dark Willow. Dark Willow was too flailingly sad to be hot.

You definitely need to watch Killing Eve, anon. It's so fucking good, and Villanelle is probably the best Hot Villain I've seen on screen, partly because she's not really framed as such.

Spoilers for Day 5, which no one here watches, but

Meredith god damn.

Dahlia Hawthorne forever.

kaia from motorcity could ecoterrorize my city, iykwim

gurl...

Fuck yes Bellatrix :D Specializes in the perfect torture spell but when she has the much younger female protag captive she puts aside her wand to use a knife instead?? What... are you doing this to me on purpose JKR?

Relatedly: Mrs. Lovett. HBC's, yes, but also Patti Lupone's and Emma Thompson's. Basically Lovett is always hot except for when she's Angela Lansbury.

honestly, the only reason I watched OUaT as long as I did was because Regina = hot like burning

hard same

The accusations against Awesome Ladies or "vegetables" fans remind me of when people shout "virtue signaling!"

It's like, the assumption that nobody really likes f/f because it has good or appealing qualities of its own, it's allll just a lie to make non-fans feel bad. You have my sword, nonny.

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I have doubts that [a femslash meme] would be very long-lived

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