I have doubts that [a femslash meme] would be very long-lived

[frogfriend]

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Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

I hate this so much because it means some of my fandoms' f/f tags are overrun with some truly terrible femslash fics. I'd rather have no fic than that sort of thing, and sometimes I also think I'll gouge my eyes out if I have to see a fic tagged "[character] is a useless lesbian" one more time.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Aw, as a useless lesbian myself, I find that pretty hashtag relatable.

Just goes to show one person's sincere squee is another person's "what is this vegetables fic and why were my eyes cursed with its presence." For a while I thought all the dumb college and barista AUs in my fandom were just people who didn't care about the characters (they aren't even human! They don't know what college or coffee is!) and were pumping out lowest-effort tripe for brownie points. Turns out, a lot of them are young, earnestly not very good writers, and really do get squealy-happy thinking about their OTP in a goddanged Starbucks. It kind of makes me go, "Your fic is terrible and you can't pay me to read it, but I have affection for you as a person and I want you to be happy. Far away from me, but happy!"

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly this is a fair point, and I was probably being uncharitable. You're right, like with barista AUs a lot of these f/f fics are probably by pretty young writers who earnestly do enjoy thinking about their OTP just hanging out and holding hands or whatever.

(The problem with the useless lesbian tag for me is that I love that meme in every other context, but on AO3 it seems to denote that the fic it's labelled with is really OOC! Like, I've seen it applied to so many characters who I can not even remotely see pulling a "Tiffany you useless lesbian" move. Again, though, YMMV and for a lot of people obviously does.)

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

....useless lesbian?

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

It's a meme based off this tumblr post (for some reason google doesn't turn up the post itself so here's a reddit post with a screenshot).

https://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/1y2yog/tiffany_you_useless_lesbian/

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Tt's the "awesome ladeez" of f/f.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly "awesome ladeez" has the same connotations as "vegetables" to me in that it seems to imply that if you like the thing (in this case, female character) it must be purely performative. At least, that is the way I've seen it used.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Everyone I know uses it earnestly, because they really do like female characters, are used to seeing them bashed or flattened out, and want to distance themselves from that attitude. I guess it can seem performative if you don't ever see the bashing, but seriously, a lot of corners of fandom are still really bad about women.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt Sorry, I didn't explain myself adequately--what I meant was I have specifically seen "awesome ladeez" and "awesome lady fans" used to mock or deride fans who prefer to focus on female characters (as opposed to the obviously superior slash ships, is the implication--and sometimes to the extent of implying that the choice is slash vs. het and f/f doesn't exist). And I do come from fandoms that are still pretty bad about women at times, so that's frustrating. My experience may not be representative, but that's what the phrase brings to mind for me.

I've seen the flattening in the name of love, too, and
that's also frustrating but not to the same extent because often it's young writers and I can see they're making an effort out of genuine enthusiasm even if they haven't quite internalized that "badass" isn't a personality traits.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Some parts of fandom definitely do flatten out female characters, but these days I'm much more likely to see "awesome ladies" being used to assume that anyone who likes female characters at all is flattening them. That liking female fighter characters is inherently suspicious.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Ah, gotcha. I think I probably just misread you. It was past my bedtime, lol. And yeah, I agree, it is SO frustrating. Eventually someone in the convo will be like "Actually I LIKE female characters, but I want them to actually be interesting and have flaws," but by that point they have already burned way past the benefit of my doubt.

Nobody goes after people for liking male characters the wrong way! Why is it that people who like female characters have to show their receipts? >:(

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

“Nobody goes after people for liking male characters the wrong way”

Have you somehow not seen any trash male/villain/woobie/“apologism”/etc etc discourse? I’m so jealous.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Nobody questions whether they really really like those characters tho. Nobody holds up an imaginary yard stick to measure the degree or quality of their appreciation for Mr Dreamy McVillain.

If your yuletide prompt is 'I just want to read about Mr McVillain doing some cool shit and being a badass'. No one is rolling their eyes because UGH they just want ~~~bada$$ vi11yns~~~~ how trite I appreciate villains for WHO THEY ARE AS CHARACTERS smh.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

DA Idk, do you not think "ugh, silly shallow fangirls only like [male villain] because he's hot" is a similar kind of thing? Not a hill I'm planning to die on here, but it does strike me as a fundamentally similar attitude of "other fans like characters for bad, shallow reasons, I like them for ~deep and meaningful~ reasons".

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's definitely a difference. People who dislike fans of Trash Villain don't accuse the fans of being smug and fake-morally superior, just as people who dislike female character fans don't accuse them of being empty-headed, silly and hormonal.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

NA

In my experience, there is eyerolling about people appreciating male characters of color in the wrong way. "I just want Sam Wilson kicking ass and taking names" is the kind of sentiment that does receive accusations of insincerity. These characters usually aren't villains, but they definitely do attract "you're enjoying them wrongly" accusations of many different kinds.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the distinction is subtle but it is there. In a broad sense, both criticisms are questioning the integrity of your appreciation for the character.

But when it comes to "silly shallow fangirls only like white male character because hotness," the implication is that the fans like the character for the wrong reasons (wherein, a "right reason" may or may not exist, depending on who you you ask--often, especially in the "Trash Villain" category, the implication is that they shouldn't like the character at all).

Whereas when it comes to "vegetables" and "Awesome Ladeez," the implication seems to be that the fans like f/f or Awesome Female Character insincerely, for purposes of Virtue and social justice capital. (And as another anon has pointed out, this also gets applied to fans of characters of color.)

And I'd go out on a limb and say that in a broad sense the latter is at least some degree of pushback against the former, in the sense of "No, it is you that is shallow."

TL;DR they're both accusations of shallow engagement but the devil is in the details.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

na

This is true, and so unfair! I want to be accused of being empty-headed, silly and hormonal when I like hot chicks and don't have deep reasons why. It's true! I'm a shallow, shallow person who sometimes just likes female characters because they're hot! Why do the haters have to assume I'm some kind of sexless nun piously worshiping Our Holy Lady of Feminism?

In honor of that, what morally reprehensible villains do you just find hot? Callisto was such an early influence on me personally. Bellatrix Lestrange/Black is also A+ Dark Fuck Princess.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt blackfire from teen titans was an early example of a despicable female character i had a crush on

there's also villanelle from killing eve who's a remorseless assassin that solves almost all her problems with murder

freddie from hannibal isn't really a villain and she's not really *that* bad but she's still a ruthless reporter who knows how to make her stories sting and i love her for it

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Morally reprehensible villains is my main type tbh. Villanelle from Killing Eve, Bellatrix, Darla and Dark Willow from Buffy, Cersei from GOT, Charlize Theron in Snow White and the Huntsman. I could go on.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Spoilers for Day 5, which no one here watches, but

Meredith god damn.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

Dahlia Hawthorne forever.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

The accusations against Awesome Ladies or "vegetables" fans remind me of when people shout "virtue signaling!"

It's like, the assumption that nobody really likes f/f because it has good or appealing qualities of its own, it's allll just a lie to make non-fans feel bad. You have my sword, nonny.

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

it does bother me a lot when people write f/f not because they want to but because they feel they have to for social capital.

it's fine to not write f/f! just write what you want to write!

Re: The wildest takes

[(Anonymous)]

I just want to know what social capital they're getting. I write femslash, and not only is nobody giving me cookies for it, hardly anybody reads it, either.