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Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 08:14 pm (UTC)Oh, I agree that that was clumsy, especially given all the Japanese influence in the Fire Nation. I'm not saying that historical Japan was a "gay paradise" (what country was?) but Sengoku-era Japan has been compared to Ancient Greece in terms of openness of gay stuff, and certainly you could do worse in terms of historical homophobia.
I think with that in particular, it may have been responding to the backlash against how, in the series, the Water Tribe was way more sexist than the Fire Nation. They did that in order to have an arc of Katara fighting sexism, and I think also to show moral shades of gray. Meanwhile Azula gets the elite lightning techniques and is briefly crowned Firelord. Whereas, going back to the cultures drawn on as inspiration, the Inuit and other circumpolar First Nations/Native American peoples had much more gender equality historically than Japan and the East Asian cultures the Fire Nation was drawing from. So I think having already made the Water Tribes more sexist and having been called racist for that creative decision, they wanted to be like, "No, the Water Tribes aren't completely socially backwards, it's more complicated than that!" It may also have been to avoid having Korra face overt and severe homophobia from her parents. A lot of gay and bi people have said that straight people should avoid wallowing in homophobia misery porn in their writings, and yeah I'm glad they didn't go that route. It felt like they were trying to correct course after how they handled the sexism, they just kind of have the subtlety of an 18-wheeler and did it in broad strokes that felt off.
I know a lot of gay and bi people also want homophobia-free fantasy settings, and that's fair and a completely valid thing to want, but I have to admit that I don't, really--or I do but it really depends on the setting. Something like Adventure Time, I really agree that homophobia would be a stupid element to bring in. With all the wild interspecies relationships, I'd headdesk if gender were a sticking point for anyone in that world. A dog is with a rainbow unicorn! A tiny elephant is with a pig! I'm pretty sure Finn lost his virginity to Lumpy Space Princess! That world is too absurd and too removed from our own for concerns like that to matter there. I wouldn't really want to see it in Steven Universe, either.
But the Avatarverse has always handled heavier and more real-worldish topics, not always done them justice but always at least given it a go. It fit for me there, even if I also thought it was a bit clumsily handled. I've read some stuff that's just supposed to be set in a homophobia-free fantasyland, and honestly, I just couldn't connect with it as well? I get the escapist fantasy angle, but I personally like to be able to process stuff like that through fiction. I know I'm rambling OT here but the way Korra's parents were "supportive" but their discomfort bled through was kind of an "ohhh I feel that" moment for me.
And yeah I'm agreed that dancing around their fragile truce makes the most sense as an in-universe Bubbline interpretation! Which is why I really want to see everything they've held in come gushing out all the more! Having had conversations not too far off from that in real life, I find that there are often these deep wounds and strong feelings you've been nursing, which are sometimes completely different from what the other person imagined you were feeling, and vice versa. And often, it's a relief, since whatever you imagined was way worse than what they actually felt--but sometimes genuinely a surprise, and sometimes something is asked of you that you weren't expecting. It's an emotional reunion of a sort, and it's so raw and vulnerable, and there's so much love and trust in being willing to Go There with each other. It seems weird that they kissed and I'm like "yes, but I wanted them to talk! In addition to the kiss, I would hope!" and I know there was no time but aaaaah.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 08:39 pm (UTC)Ah, I wasn't in ATLA fandom when it was airing so I didn't know about the flak they'd gotten for the Katara sexism plot. And I totally get not wanting Korra to face severe homophobia from her parents at the same time you do want to have them have #relatable struggles - but it's the combination of "homophobia is still an issue in our fictional world and they're worried about coming out" with "it's an issue in other cultures, which btw are explained super weirdly, but not ours" that for me had the upshot of "why even write this plot?"
I think if I wanted serious exploration of homophobia in an Avatar-like setting I'd want it to lean a lot more into the heredity aspect of bending. (Which might also entail bringing up prejudices against ~race mixing~ in the Korra setting as opposed to the ATLA setting.) You're such a powerful bender and you're just going to refuse to pass that on? That seems more plausible to me than "oh it's indecent for some reason", even if I find the Water Tribe "it's technically okay but don't ~flaunt~ your weird sexuality" sadly realistic (yeah I had to refresh my memory of how exactly the comics handled it a bit).
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 11:06 pm (UTC)Oh believe me, you won't find me stanning for LoK's writing on the whole of things. It's one of those series where I love a lot about the characters and the world and it has moments of brilliance, but there were so many writing decisions that were either good ideas handled badly or just bad ideas to begin with. I kind of went into the comics with the very low bar of "at least give me canon Korrasami," so my low expectations led me to feel pleasantly surprised when there were actual relatable moments in there. Bryan and Mike were never great even at their het romances, and honestly I'd had little faith they could write f/f with any authenticity, but by the already low standards of the rest of the writing on LoK, it was pretty decent IMO! I've wondered if Irene Koh, the illustrator, had any input. I heard that after things fell through with the first illustrator and they hired her, there were some script overhauls. But it's not like the first script was ever released, so we may never know what, if anything, was changed. I like to think that even though she isn't a writer on the series, maybe they bounce ideas off her and then write with that influence?
On the topic of general discomfort with Avatarverse handling of LGBT stuff, while I was thrilled that more characters were confirmed as gay or bi since prior to the LoK finale we had essentially nothing, I was pettily annoyed that they went against some of my personal headcanons wrt sexuality of previous Avatars. They confirmed Kyoshi as bi (and she's getting prose novels about her coming out!) and no gay/bi male Avatars, but I'd always either headcanoned her as a lesbian and Roku as bi, or just headcanoned all Avatars as bi. It does kind of stand out that the only probably canon mlm in the series is Aiwei (minor LoK villain) and that's only based on an answer they gave a fan that wasn't recorded, so it isn't referenceable anywhere. Like, it's two straight guys in charge of the writing decisions, and I've never felt that Korrasami was fetishing or male-gaze at all, but these subtle biases do come out. I'm certainly not saying that they're wrong for not matching my, Nonny Q. Fan's, personal headcanons (that part's more just brattiness) and obviously I'm not complaining about focus on f/f at all! Just, out of the last five Avatars, that gives us two bi women and three straight men. I'll probably read the Kyoshi books, and hope for f/f content.
Regarding your question before about why people prefer to write/interpret Bubbline as not exes getting back together, my impression is that they don't know the canon that well. For both AT and LoK, when there was a hint of f/f, we got a bunch of curious fans who were like, "These characters intrigue me, but I don't really have time for the whole canon." That's really kind of a function of how little canon f/f there is in anything. I did think Marceline's mingled bitterness and longing came across in her song that started it all, and I would assume fans just here for the Bubbline would watch that on YouTube or something, so I don't really know how they missed that, but I saw a lot of stuff with people seeming to assume they hadn't kissed yet/had no former relationship baggage. When all their centuries of baggage was part of what made them great!
I'd always kind of headcanoned that a big part of what made them break up in the past is how Bonnibel is very Mad Scientist Will Fix All the Things, and tried to "helpfully" fix things about Marceline Marceline didn't want fixed, and then refused to admit she was wrong. I feel like Marceline just wanted an apology, and got more and more bitter every year she didn't get one. I think she always wanted to kiss and make up, she just wanted Bonnibel to do one thing to initiate that, to make her feel valued. While kind of knowing that she could initiate it at any time and Bonnibel would take her back, and wanting to, but being too proud herself. Plus, being functionally immortal, they feel like they have forever to wait for the other one to give in. I'd guess that the moment Bonnibel almost died was when Marceline realized she didn't want to wait and risk later becoming never.
Also, I liked that we got a shot of Susan Strong and Frieda, though they should have kissed too! Go borrow Rebecca Sugar's spine and make it gayer.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 02:29 am (UTC)RIGHT KYOSHI WAS DEFINITELY GAY
headcanoned all Avatars as bi
I've seen sketchy justifications for this, but I would consider "what, Korra used to be Aang and now she can't be attracted to women anymore? Aang used to be Yangchen and he can't be attracted to men anymore?" to be non-sketchy. (NB: I don't remember if we know anything about Yangchen's relationships.)
I like your Bubbline headcanons!
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 01:58 pm (UTC)Right?? Like there's no "reason" for it, Kyoshi probably got all of two minutes of screentime total, I'm just gay and I'm like "she's gay."
I admit the alternate "then all the Avatars are just bi" headcanon isn't really that thought out, like it could be that Wan was bi and his bi soul is just bi all the time, but really it was that back before Korra came out I was like, "Aang is bi and Roku was bi, must be an Avatar thing" then Korra came out and I was like "She's bi too!" and I was right!
I think Yangchen is the only named Avatar (other than Wan?) we haven't canonically seen in a relationship. I know she appeared in some of the newer AtLA comics, which I'm not caught up on, but a skim of the wiki didn't say anything about romance. Air Nomads of her time wouldn't have practiced marriage, for whatever that's worth, though Yangchen in particular seemed to be of the opinion that Air Nomad stuff that was for releasing attachment doesn't apply to Avatars because the Avatar can't break the cycle of reincarnation, they must always be reborn as a duty to the world.
Also lmao I was reading behind-the-scenes stuff about the Bubbline kiss, here: https://comicbook.com/anime/2018/09/05/adventure-time-ep-behind-the-scenes-kiss-details/ It seems they DID borrow Rebecca Sugar's spine a bit (they credit her with developing the relationship early on and even with building the fanbase, IIRC she drew Bubbline fanart) which cracks me up, I hope Sugar makes every show on Cartoon Network gay. Also the storyboarder Hanna K. Nyströmthe was the one who put the kiss in, with it not being scripted!
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 02:33 pm (UTC)I think Yangchen is the only named Avatar (other than Wan?) we haven't canonically seen in a relationship....Air Nomads of her time wouldn't have practiced marriage
Oh, right. But anyway, the point wasn't about Yangchen specifically.
"It actually wasn’t in the outline when it was submitted. It didn’t say that they kiss. It just said they ‘have a moment.’ When Hanna boarded that, there was a little note in the margin that said ‘Come on!’ with a big exclamation point. That was the only note. I can’t argue with that."