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Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 05:15 pm (UTC)I've always had kind of mixed feelings about what was going on with Bubbline and what direction it should be taken in. What Was Missing really made it look like they were exes, with Marceline feeling she wasn't the one who did wrong and not wanting to apologize and beg Bonnibel to take her back, but wanting to because she missed her. IIRC, Marceline's VA said at a con that she was given the acting direction that Marceline and Bonnibel were exes, but then said on Twitter that it had all been a joke and wasn't serious--around the time that someone on staff got fired for making that recap video hinting at a Bubbline history/romance. It was pretty clear that had been her acting direction, and her new acting direction was "don't get fired." :/ Then I think they were afraid to explore that at all for a few years, and that left us squinting at breadcrumbs. Like the bit where Marceline had given Bonnibel a shirt years ago but never saw her wear it, then was gratified to learn that Bonnibel held it so dearly she still wore it to bed every night. What were we supposed to make of this? Were they still broken up, but Marceline just wanted assurance that Bonnibel still cared--and that maybe there was still a chance someday? The way some fans seemed to see it was a sign of a new, current, or burgeoning romance, but I didn't want to let go of all the baggage they had as exes! Exes who work through whatever went down between them and rekindle the old flame, sure, but I wanted that emotional messiness.
In recent years, they'd started upping the subtext again, as well as giving us some episodes focusing on just them. Stakes left me uncertain once again what they were trying to say--had they sorted through whatever drove them apart and decided to give things another go? Had they not salvaged their relationship, but at least their friendship? Had the show just forgotten the whole "exes" thing. I mean, Bonnibel's age has been jerked around, from stated to be 18/19, but actually (according to the wiki, which has done the math on the timeline better than I) 827, and I can't remember if it was ever explained why she'd lie about that, it just felt like different writers taking it in different directions. Heck, Bonnibel/Finn was heavily hinted at in early seasons.
Adventure Time has always been a tiny fandom, and most of the fannish activity is focused around either Bubbline or the canon rule 63 m/m version, Gumlee. A lot of the Bubbline/Gumlee fans aren't really that into the canon, which like, I'm not trying to gatekeep anyone! If the ship makes them happy and they like reading the fics and reblogging the art and stuff, they're as welcome as anyone! It just kind of created this weird atmosphere where a significant portion of the fanbase wasn't actually that familiar with the canon, and as a result you tended to miss out on interpretations based on the weirdness of their canon history and the heavy implication that they'd dated at least once before in their many centuries. You got a lot of the "Soft wlw uwu" crowd who just wanted them to kiss and look pretty, and I was like yes, that--and also, my kingdom for them actually talking about their relationship bluntly so I don't have to read between the lines and guess what's subtext for their relationship! They have so much history!
And meanwhile, so much has changed in the cartoon world over these years. We had Korrasami, we had the Rupphire wedding and kiss. (Which IMO was so much braver and more calculated than the Bubbline kiss, there were so many ingenious ways of flipping off homophobic censors. Making the wedding a giant plot element, putting some of the biggest events and most important lore stuff right AT the wedding so it couldn't be censored out without leaving an obvious and gaping hole, even putting Ruby in the dress as a very personal "fuck you" to Russia dubbing her as a man. The framing on the kiss where you actually see their lips meet, when the rules of the universe would have allowed for a cowardly glow of fusion light obscuring it or something. In contrast, the Bubbline kiss isn't tied to plot, and those two or three seconds could easily be snipped without making the finale unintelligible or anything. And in some countries, they absolutely will be. I'm still very, very glad they put the Bubbline kiss in, but Steven Universe set a heck of a high bar for un-censorable, in-your-face gay.) I'd been shouting for years, as I think many Bubbline fans have, to please just gird their loins and DO IT already. Knowing AT was ending, we all really hoped they'd just go for it in the finale. And they did! It's a relief, and it would have been so disappointing if they'd slunk off into their final sunset without ever taking that stand. I can finally say, this is canon, for real this time, not wink-wink nudge-nudge "they said it but then denied it" "canon." That means a ton in itself.
But because it was a quick kiss and not much more, their relationship was never truly delved into as a romance. It's also not quite clear what the kiss was saying--that they were beginning a relationship for the first time, that they'd always been together, or what? I personally interpret it as Marceline finally admitting that she wants to get back together, the very sentiment she expressed but couldn't be honest about in What Was Missing. I think that they were both finally in a place where they could begin again, and that kiss was opening the door, but they're probably going to have a good talk about their feelings too and what they want to do differently this time sometime after the credits roll.
Korrasami suffered from a similar problem. Since it only became canon in the last 30 seconds of the show, and they never talked in the show about their relationship as a relationship, it gave us this little bit of canon, but not a lot of development on it. The comics have been addressing this--showing them as a couple, how they are with each other, what they like about each other, how they solve problems, coming out to Korra's parents, deciding how to meet the public as a couple. I wonder if Bubbline becoming official show canon will open the door to these kinds of narratives in the Adventure Time comics as well. It's a little frustrating that these stories can't actually get animated and aired, but I vastly prefer this to them not being told at all! I'm actually way behind on the AT comics, but I should catch up on them.
I feel greedy for saying I wish there had been more, considering how many years it looked like we were going to get nothing and like the showrunners just didn't care about fighting this battle. The bit about how they couldn't because "homosexuality is illegal in some of the countries Adventure Time airs in" felt particularly weak to me, especially considering some AT episodes have been banned in various countries anyway, for reasons other than being gay, and the show has always been heavily censored. (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/Censorship_of_Adventure_Time lots and lots of censorship!) I know there was a lot going on in that finale in general, and it already felt rushed in its many plots. So my emotions are doing a very weird "Yes! Yes!!! Finally!" alongside, "...that was it?" I guess that was the bare minimum I wanted, though not the minimum I expected. As I said, I still do hope we'll have more in comics form.
Maybe it will also have the effect the Korrasami ending did, of making a lot of homophobes flip their shit and flounce. The shit-flipping part is unpleasant, but worth it to make them GTFO. While as I said, the transformative work end of fandom leans heavily Bubbline, and Bubbline has a fandom of its own that's not even really Adventure Time fandom, just Bubbline, there is a noisy and obnoxious contingent of homophobes in the fandom who mostly don't actually create anything, but love to give their hot takes on how the show will never make Bubbline canon because being gay is morally wrong and it's too pure a show to corrupt the kiddies with that, and tell the gross predatory lesbians to stop projecting their perversion onto a kids' show. You run into them in basically any non-tumblr discussion of the canon. (Never 4get the Makorra stan on tumblr who went on rants about how the Korrasami ending would "confuse children" and it was wrong of them to do that. Byyyyye!) Like, there's the part of my gay heart that wants actual gay narratives and interactions and the level of intensity and focus for Bubbline that, say, Finn/Flame Princess got, and the part that just wants the bare minimum required to flush out the tantruming homophobes. We definitely got the latter, anyway.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 06:07 pm (UTC)also, my kingdom for them actually talking about their relationship bluntly so I don't have to read between the lines and guess what's subtext for their relationship! They have so much history!
Aww, but part of what I like about their relationship is their inability to spit it out so that instead they sublimate it into actions and saying other stuff.
I wonder if Bubbline becoming official show canon will open the door to these kinds of narratives in the Adventure Time comics as well.
I honestly hope not. I've been a huge Korrasami shipper since S1 and I was really excited that they were going to get "screen time" in the comics, but the coming-out plot was just...incredibly weird, IMO. I want them to be together in the comics without it being a bigger deal than, idk, a dog/unicorn ship, and deal with relationship problems that aren't "can we be open."
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 06:59 pm (UTC)Ohh, I didn't mean in-universe homophobia! I definitely don't want that, that would be terrible. I just meant in terms of seeing them exist as a couple and be able to talk about like, what they want for their futures, talk about things that happened in the past without being coy about the fact that they were romantically involved in the past, stuff like that! Like being able to take up space in the narrative to a similar degree, not doing an identical plot to the Korrasami one. Sorry, my wording didn't communicate that well! DNW angst over being openly gay/bi in Bubbline, it's a broken post-apocalyptic romance between a vampire half-demon and a wad of gum, they're both many centuries old and have been around this block before, that would be a stupid thing for them to even have to worry about. Bubbline is a very different ship from Korrasami in a lot of ways, their stories should reflect that!
(I have pretty mixed feelings about the Korrasami thing too, on the one hand I'm not sure we actually needed the History of Homophobia in the Avatarverse speech, on the other hand it was actually kind of good to feel included in the worldbuilding? Like it's hard to hate it for not being the most brilliantly written inclusion considering I have huge issues with the writing all through LoK that has nothing to do with gay stuff, and even Kataang was not really handled that well as a romance, so overall I was like, "they're doing their best and I'm glad they tried" while not feeling 100% fulfilled by the result. I still liked iffy writing with inclusion more than iffy writing with no inclusion--and the actual Korra/Asami moments where they interact with each other made me really happy.)
Seeing them as cutely unable to spit it out is a good interpretation of what we got, and probably the best silk's purse you can get out of that sow's ear of censorship. To me it felt like I was never sure if they were winking and nudging and intending a coyly romantic reading, or furiously backpedaling into Gal Pals territory. And that kind of thing always brought the homophobes out of the woodwork to say shippers were "perverting friendship" and I hated just never being able to feel sure of what the story was actually trying to say and if it was canon or not? Plus considering they're supposed to be exes, you wouldn't think they'd be shy, though I could see them being terrified to open that particular can of worms, because some friendships paved over failed relationships are like, civil until you uncork all the things you've been bottling up and then you just have A Mess. I feel like they must both have a lot to say to each other, and might be afraid to begin that because it'll either end up in a big fight or makeup sex and they're not really ready for either. (Though maybe, as of the finale, they've reached the point where they can unpack those things more capably.) But yeah, going with an in-universe explanation of them hesitant to say things rather than going "AUGH CENSORS LET ME HAVE THIS" is probably a much more enjoyable way to view it!
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 07:14 pm (UTC)I know I'm getting off-topic but the thing that bothered me about the Korrasami coming-out plot, besides that not all stories with gay couples need to be about coming out and in a fictional setting you have a perfect opportunity to not even worry about that, is that having the Water Tribe be accepting and the Fire Nation homophobic just seemed lazy. I don't even need the Fire Nation to be accepting (although I still do fondly remember some Firefly fic where the cosmopolitan Alliance was much more tolerant of LGBT people than the backwater Rebellion, because it was really interesting fic-as-meta) but I don't like Good People Are Good In All Ways, Bad People are Bad In All Ways. Why would they even be worried about coming out in such a context?
Seeing them as cutely unable to spit it out is a good interpretation of what we got, and probably the best silk's purse you can get out of that sow's ear of censorship.
Yeah, I think I'm inclined to look for the Watsonian explanation - not as an excuse, but ultimately what we did get, for Doylist reasons, is two characters who don't talk about their feelings, and I want to make that work in-story too.
considering they're supposed to be exes, you wouldn't think they'd be shy, though I could see them being terrified to open that particular can of worms
Exactly! "We're finally able to be civil to each other and I don't want to ruin that by talking about our past relationship, even if the intensity of the feelings is totally not gone" is a more plausible "don't want to spoil our friendship" than any new relationship could be.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 08:14 pm (UTC)Oh, I agree that that was clumsy, especially given all the Japanese influence in the Fire Nation. I'm not saying that historical Japan was a "gay paradise" (what country was?) but Sengoku-era Japan has been compared to Ancient Greece in terms of openness of gay stuff, and certainly you could do worse in terms of historical homophobia.
I think with that in particular, it may have been responding to the backlash against how, in the series, the Water Tribe was way more sexist than the Fire Nation. They did that in order to have an arc of Katara fighting sexism, and I think also to show moral shades of gray. Meanwhile Azula gets the elite lightning techniques and is briefly crowned Firelord. Whereas, going back to the cultures drawn on as inspiration, the Inuit and other circumpolar First Nations/Native American peoples had much more gender equality historically than Japan and the East Asian cultures the Fire Nation was drawing from. So I think having already made the Water Tribes more sexist and having been called racist for that creative decision, they wanted to be like, "No, the Water Tribes aren't completely socially backwards, it's more complicated than that!" It may also have been to avoid having Korra face overt and severe homophobia from her parents. A lot of gay and bi people have said that straight people should avoid wallowing in homophobia misery porn in their writings, and yeah I'm glad they didn't go that route. It felt like they were trying to correct course after how they handled the sexism, they just kind of have the subtlety of an 18-wheeler and did it in broad strokes that felt off.
I know a lot of gay and bi people also want homophobia-free fantasy settings, and that's fair and a completely valid thing to want, but I have to admit that I don't, really--or I do but it really depends on the setting. Something like Adventure Time, I really agree that homophobia would be a stupid element to bring in. With all the wild interspecies relationships, I'd headdesk if gender were a sticking point for anyone in that world. A dog is with a rainbow unicorn! A tiny elephant is with a pig! I'm pretty sure Finn lost his virginity to Lumpy Space Princess! That world is too absurd and too removed from our own for concerns like that to matter there. I wouldn't really want to see it in Steven Universe, either.
But the Avatarverse has always handled heavier and more real-worldish topics, not always done them justice but always at least given it a go. It fit for me there, even if I also thought it was a bit clumsily handled. I've read some stuff that's just supposed to be set in a homophobia-free fantasyland, and honestly, I just couldn't connect with it as well? I get the escapist fantasy angle, but I personally like to be able to process stuff like that through fiction. I know I'm rambling OT here but the way Korra's parents were "supportive" but their discomfort bled through was kind of an "ohhh I feel that" moment for me.
And yeah I'm agreed that dancing around their fragile truce makes the most sense as an in-universe Bubbline interpretation! Which is why I really want to see everything they've held in come gushing out all the more! Having had conversations not too far off from that in real life, I find that there are often these deep wounds and strong feelings you've been nursing, which are sometimes completely different from what the other person imagined you were feeling, and vice versa. And often, it's a relief, since whatever you imagined was way worse than what they actually felt--but sometimes genuinely a surprise, and sometimes something is asked of you that you weren't expecting. It's an emotional reunion of a sort, and it's so raw and vulnerable, and there's so much love and trust in being willing to Go There with each other. It seems weird that they kissed and I'm like "yes, but I wanted them to talk! In addition to the kiss, I would hope!" and I know there was no time but aaaaah.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 08:39 pm (UTC)Ah, I wasn't in ATLA fandom when it was airing so I didn't know about the flak they'd gotten for the Katara sexism plot. And I totally get not wanting Korra to face severe homophobia from her parents at the same time you do want to have them have #relatable struggles - but it's the combination of "homophobia is still an issue in our fictional world and they're worried about coming out" with "it's an issue in other cultures, which btw are explained super weirdly, but not ours" that for me had the upshot of "why even write this plot?"
I think if I wanted serious exploration of homophobia in an Avatar-like setting I'd want it to lean a lot more into the heredity aspect of bending. (Which might also entail bringing up prejudices against ~race mixing~ in the Korra setting as opposed to the ATLA setting.) You're such a powerful bender and you're just going to refuse to pass that on? That seems more plausible to me than "oh it's indecent for some reason", even if I find the Water Tribe "it's technically okay but don't ~flaunt~ your weird sexuality" sadly realistic (yeah I had to refresh my memory of how exactly the comics handled it a bit).
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-05 11:06 pm (UTC)Oh believe me, you won't find me stanning for LoK's writing on the whole of things. It's one of those series where I love a lot about the characters and the world and it has moments of brilliance, but there were so many writing decisions that were either good ideas handled badly or just bad ideas to begin with. I kind of went into the comics with the very low bar of "at least give me canon Korrasami," so my low expectations led me to feel pleasantly surprised when there were actual relatable moments in there. Bryan and Mike were never great even at their het romances, and honestly I'd had little faith they could write f/f with any authenticity, but by the already low standards of the rest of the writing on LoK, it was pretty decent IMO! I've wondered if Irene Koh, the illustrator, had any input. I heard that after things fell through with the first illustrator and they hired her, there were some script overhauls. But it's not like the first script was ever released, so we may never know what, if anything, was changed. I like to think that even though she isn't a writer on the series, maybe they bounce ideas off her and then write with that influence?
On the topic of general discomfort with Avatarverse handling of LGBT stuff, while I was thrilled that more characters were confirmed as gay or bi since prior to the LoK finale we had essentially nothing, I was pettily annoyed that they went against some of my personal headcanons wrt sexuality of previous Avatars. They confirmed Kyoshi as bi (and she's getting prose novels about her coming out!) and no gay/bi male Avatars, but I'd always either headcanoned her as a lesbian and Roku as bi, or just headcanoned all Avatars as bi. It does kind of stand out that the only probably canon mlm in the series is Aiwei (minor LoK villain) and that's only based on an answer they gave a fan that wasn't recorded, so it isn't referenceable anywhere. Like, it's two straight guys in charge of the writing decisions, and I've never felt that Korrasami was fetishing or male-gaze at all, but these subtle biases do come out. I'm certainly not saying that they're wrong for not matching my, Nonny Q. Fan's, personal headcanons (that part's more just brattiness) and obviously I'm not complaining about focus on f/f at all! Just, out of the last five Avatars, that gives us two bi women and three straight men. I'll probably read the Kyoshi books, and hope for f/f content.
Regarding your question before about why people prefer to write/interpret Bubbline as not exes getting back together, my impression is that they don't know the canon that well. For both AT and LoK, when there was a hint of f/f, we got a bunch of curious fans who were like, "These characters intrigue me, but I don't really have time for the whole canon." That's really kind of a function of how little canon f/f there is in anything. I did think Marceline's mingled bitterness and longing came across in her song that started it all, and I would assume fans just here for the Bubbline would watch that on YouTube or something, so I don't really know how they missed that, but I saw a lot of stuff with people seeming to assume they hadn't kissed yet/had no former relationship baggage. When all their centuries of baggage was part of what made them great!
I'd always kind of headcanoned that a big part of what made them break up in the past is how Bonnibel is very Mad Scientist Will Fix All the Things, and tried to "helpfully" fix things about Marceline Marceline didn't want fixed, and then refused to admit she was wrong. I feel like Marceline just wanted an apology, and got more and more bitter every year she didn't get one. I think she always wanted to kiss and make up, she just wanted Bonnibel to do one thing to initiate that, to make her feel valued. While kind of knowing that she could initiate it at any time and Bonnibel would take her back, and wanting to, but being too proud herself. Plus, being functionally immortal, they feel like they have forever to wait for the other one to give in. I'd guess that the moment Bonnibel almost died was when Marceline realized she didn't want to wait and risk later becoming never.
Also, I liked that we got a shot of Susan Strong and Frieda, though they should have kissed too! Go borrow Rebecca Sugar's spine and make it gayer.
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 02:29 am (UTC)RIGHT KYOSHI WAS DEFINITELY GAY
headcanoned all Avatars as bi
I've seen sketchy justifications for this, but I would consider "what, Korra used to be Aang and now she can't be attracted to women anymore? Aang used to be Yangchen and he can't be attracted to men anymore?" to be non-sketchy. (NB: I don't remember if we know anything about Yangchen's relationships.)
I like your Bubbline headcanons!
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 01:58 pm (UTC)Right?? Like there's no "reason" for it, Kyoshi probably got all of two minutes of screentime total, I'm just gay and I'm like "she's gay."
I admit the alternate "then all the Avatars are just bi" headcanon isn't really that thought out, like it could be that Wan was bi and his bi soul is just bi all the time, but really it was that back before Korra came out I was like, "Aang is bi and Roku was bi, must be an Avatar thing" then Korra came out and I was like "She's bi too!" and I was right!
I think Yangchen is the only named Avatar (other than Wan?) we haven't canonically seen in a relationship. I know she appeared in some of the newer AtLA comics, which I'm not caught up on, but a skim of the wiki didn't say anything about romance. Air Nomads of her time wouldn't have practiced marriage, for whatever that's worth, though Yangchen in particular seemed to be of the opinion that Air Nomad stuff that was for releasing attachment doesn't apply to Avatars because the Avatar can't break the cycle of reincarnation, they must always be reborn as a duty to the world.
Also lmao I was reading behind-the-scenes stuff about the Bubbline kiss, here: https://comicbook.com/anime/2018/09/05/adventure-time-ep-behind-the-scenes-kiss-details/ It seems they DID borrow Rebecca Sugar's spine a bit (they credit her with developing the relationship early on and even with building the fanbase, IIRC she drew Bubbline fanart) which cracks me up, I hope Sugar makes every show on Cartoon Network gay. Also the storyboarder Hanna K. Nyströmthe was the one who put the kiss in, with it not being scripted!
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 02:33 pm (UTC)I think Yangchen is the only named Avatar (other than Wan?) we haven't canonically seen in a relationship....Air Nomads of her time wouldn't have practiced marriage
Oh, right. But anyway, the point wasn't about Yangchen specifically.
"It actually wasn’t in the outline when it was submitted. It didn’t say that they kiss. It just said they ‘have a moment.’ When Hanna boarded that, there was a little note in the margin that said ‘Come on!’ with a big exclamation point. That was the only note. I can’t argue with that."
Re: BUBBLINE YOU GUYS
Date: 2018-09-06 01:57 am (UTC)Canonically too the Fire Nation had gender equality (female soldiers though not female generals, nobody contesting Azula as Fire Lord or anything she, Mai and Ty Lee did) while the Water Tribe had an entire sexism plot with Katara and Pakku. Sure, things are different in the South and have definitely changed in the like... 60-70 years since Aang's time, but I feel like the Fire Nation would have a more practical view.